interview to ismail kupelli, researcher and activist living in porto, published in the german left review «analyse&Kritik» (2012)
What are your political activities? How you get involved in this topics? Are you going to work in this fields in the future? Are you satisfied with your political work?
I am or have been involved in several different groups and stuggles: I help out at the community centers in my neighbourhood (es.col.a, casa viva), in the hope of helping to create real alternatives to the neo-liberal system - be it organizing to resist privatizations or evictions, helping in free shop or facilitating assemblies. I'm in a leftwing party (Left's Bloc) since 1999, was involved in my student's union in the architecture school, then in a group of architects stuggling with the absence of regulation in our profession and the restrictions imposed by its professional order.
I worry about counter-propaganda and the passing of the anti-austerity-anti-capitalist-ideas, and I'm very unsatisfied with the numbers of people protesting, and lack of activism and participation. It's shocks me that, despite the total failure of the austerity politics and measures and the cycle of eternal debt we are in, the official propaganda manages to lower the debate to only one point of view, that they 'discuss' as if it were two opinions, repeated ad nauseum on the media, desguised as 'technical', 'neutral' or 'non-political'. I believe that either its politics, and therefore negotiation, and therefore, power/class struggles... or the There Is No Alternative crap. Either... or. that shock makes me react, and so I draw and try to caricaturize the situation, or make posters to help promote a demonstration, etc.
What are the most important aspects of the current crisis? What is the most striking/impressive symptom of the crisis? Which are the most important/most interesting protest movements against the austerity politics during the last 4-5 years? What was the most striking/impressive experience (for you) during the protests?
Symptoms of the crisis: biggest wave of emigration since the sixties, drop of the work value, increase of homeless people, children leaving school, hunger, disapearence of the social state,unemployment, polititians praising charity and a certain smell of fascism in the overall securitary political speech against protesters.
Most interesting movements in the last year or so: OWS, in the way they made visible the concentration of power and wealth in the top 1%, or in the way how they chose non violence as a tactic, or in the way they comunicated with the rest of the people. The indignados, in the way the organized themselves, the miners and the 'jornaleros' in Marinaleda, in Spain... es.col.a, of course, in Portugal, as well the 'estivadores' struggles in the ports, or the occupation of rossio in Lisbon. And many important researches and discussions in several fields that show the impossibility of the neo-liberal choices, the auditing of the debts, and all the present projects of alternative self-managed networks, commerce (the direct trade market in greece...), communication systems, production and distribution.
The most striking experience for me: the reocupation of es.col.a on the 25th of April
Activism in the time of crisis. How it works out, when you try to mobilize people? What is the relationship between the grassroot-movements and the left parties?
You never know how to mobilize people. You just try and take the questions you have, and the discrepancies you see in the 'matrix', state them out loud and hope that the rest of the people will relate and feel motivated to act on it. I think looking for the best possible processes of working and relating, in each different group, helps to not loose people that are trying to get involved, both in parties as in other activist-groups - activism is motivated by the sense of making a difference and being able to really participate in the construction of alternatives and/or political programs. I think the final objective should be mirrored in the ways to get there - be it in the fighting excessive concentrations of power or in the striving for more direct participation and less profissional structures, the sharing of information and better decision making processes.
About the relationship of the grassroot movements and the (leftwing) parties, I think it could be better. Ideally, they would parallel, intertwining in concrete actions here and there. Parties taking the movements causes and demands into law and into their programs, movements influencing and proposing new debates and paths of most resistance, parties being influenced by the new forms of organisation. In reality... Well, people in activist groups tend to suspect the 'good will' of political parties, and fear attempts of control, or can't find common processes of decision. ...I don't believe that's an excuse, by the way - if you really try, you find ways to work with people different from you - neither is an excuse the difficult history between most of the diferent parts of the left (from comunists to anarchists and everything in between).
I think it is very dangerous to simply say 'all parties are bad' and/or 'the same' - that logic, and the shitty polititians we have been having for ages, makes more than half the population not vote: and the rightwing keeps perpetuating itself in power.
I know that for many the leftwing could be better and is not radical enough, because it proposes reform (and because it is still thinking about 'growth' to solve our enormous, spiral-recession). Problem is, even these simple, not-that-radical-proposals (to tax and control the banks, to end offshores, to get better legislation on work and employment etc) are not getting through - even though they would surely be 'better' for the majority of the population. Left is better than right. There's left and right, up and down. I still think so.
This is a very complex problem, of course. I'm not saying that the 'democracy' we have is very good - the es.col.a process, as well as the persecution of activists involved in demonstrations, prove that both justice and political representation are unfair, repressive and biast. I'm just saying that I want more active democracy, not less. Political parties, as an abstract notion, are just a group of people with similar ideas and projects who get together and make programs and run for manageing the public affaires according to those programs - the problem is the vertical power structures that sometimes the parties evolve into (and that may also happen in other kind of political groups and structures, not only in parties). Not the concept of party in itself - I don't think we'll manage to not need representation any time soon. I prefer to have a say in who gets chosen than have the IMF chose...
There is some difficulty in all groups in hearing other points of view, and negotiating programs. And some egos, a lot of different practices and codes, and several arenas of discussion and intervention. Despite all those problems, there have been times, this last year, in porto (general strikes, the es.col.a process, fights against privatizations, etc) where people have been able to get together - i think it is possible, plausible, and very necessary. We need more people everywhere. In all groups, formal or informal, in all scales and social fields, demanding real change and oposing solidarity and creativity to the individualistic-dog-eat-dog-capitalist-world. This is also a participation crisis.
What are your political activities? How you get involved in this topics? Are you going to work in this fields in the future? Are you satisfied with your political work?
I am or have been involved in several different groups and stuggles: I help out at the community centers in my neighbourhood (es.col.a, casa viva), in the hope of helping to create real alternatives to the neo-liberal system - be it organizing to resist privatizations or evictions, helping in free shop or facilitating assemblies. I'm in a leftwing party (Left's Bloc) since 1999, was involved in my student's union in the architecture school, then in a group of architects stuggling with the absence of regulation in our profession and the restrictions imposed by its professional order.
I worry about counter-propaganda and the passing of the anti-austerity-anti-capitalist-ideas, and I'm very unsatisfied with the numbers of people protesting, and lack of activism and participation. It's shocks me that, despite the total failure of the austerity politics and measures and the cycle of eternal debt we are in, the official propaganda manages to lower the debate to only one point of view, that they 'discuss' as if it were two opinions, repeated ad nauseum on the media, desguised as 'technical', 'neutral' or 'non-political'. I believe that either its politics, and therefore negotiation, and therefore, power/class struggles... or the There Is No Alternative crap. Either... or. that shock makes me react, and so I draw and try to caricaturize the situation, or make posters to help promote a demonstration, etc.
What are the most important aspects of the current crisis? What is the most striking/impressive symptom of the crisis? Which are the most important/most interesting protest movements against the austerity politics during the last 4-5 years? What was the most striking/impressive experience (for you) during the protests?
Symptoms of the crisis: biggest wave of emigration since the sixties, drop of the work value, increase of homeless people, children leaving school, hunger, disapearence of the social state,unemployment, polititians praising charity and a certain smell of fascism in the overall securitary political speech against protesters.
Most interesting movements in the last year or so: OWS, in the way they made visible the concentration of power and wealth in the top 1%, or in the way how they chose non violence as a tactic, or in the way they comunicated with the rest of the people. The indignados, in the way the organized themselves, the miners and the 'jornaleros' in Marinaleda, in Spain... es.col.a, of course, in Portugal, as well the 'estivadores' struggles in the ports, or the occupation of rossio in Lisbon. And many important researches and discussions in several fields that show the impossibility of the neo-liberal choices, the auditing of the debts, and all the present projects of alternative self-managed networks, commerce (the direct trade market in greece...), communication systems, production and distribution.
The most striking experience for me: the reocupation of es.col.a on the 25th of April
Activism in the time of crisis. How it works out, when you try to mobilize people? What is the relationship between the grassroot-movements and the left parties?
You never know how to mobilize people. You just try and take the questions you have, and the discrepancies you see in the 'matrix', state them out loud and hope that the rest of the people will relate and feel motivated to act on it. I think looking for the best possible processes of working and relating, in each different group, helps to not loose people that are trying to get involved, both in parties as in other activist-groups - activism is motivated by the sense of making a difference and being able to really participate in the construction of alternatives and/or political programs. I think the final objective should be mirrored in the ways to get there - be it in the fighting excessive concentrations of power or in the striving for more direct participation and less profissional structures, the sharing of information and better decision making processes.
About the relationship of the grassroot movements and the (leftwing) parties, I think it could be better. Ideally, they would parallel, intertwining in concrete actions here and there. Parties taking the movements causes and demands into law and into their programs, movements influencing and proposing new debates and paths of most resistance, parties being influenced by the new forms of organisation. In reality... Well, people in activist groups tend to suspect the 'good will' of political parties, and fear attempts of control, or can't find common processes of decision. ...I don't believe that's an excuse, by the way - if you really try, you find ways to work with people different from you - neither is an excuse the difficult history between most of the diferent parts of the left (from comunists to anarchists and everything in between).
I think it is very dangerous to simply say 'all parties are bad' and/or 'the same' - that logic, and the shitty polititians we have been having for ages, makes more than half the population not vote: and the rightwing keeps perpetuating itself in power.
I know that for many the leftwing could be better and is not radical enough, because it proposes reform (and because it is still thinking about 'growth' to solve our enormous, spiral-recession). Problem is, even these simple, not-that-radical-proposals (to tax and control the banks, to end offshores, to get better legislation on work and employment etc) are not getting through - even though they would surely be 'better' for the majority of the population. Left is better than right. There's left and right, up and down. I still think so.
This is a very complex problem, of course. I'm not saying that the 'democracy' we have is very good - the es.col.a process, as well as the persecution of activists involved in demonstrations, prove that both justice and political representation are unfair, repressive and biast. I'm just saying that I want more active democracy, not less. Political parties, as an abstract notion, are just a group of people with similar ideas and projects who get together and make programs and run for manageing the public affaires according to those programs - the problem is the vertical power structures that sometimes the parties evolve into (and that may also happen in other kind of political groups and structures, not only in parties). Not the concept of party in itself - I don't think we'll manage to not need representation any time soon. I prefer to have a say in who gets chosen than have the IMF chose...
There is some difficulty in all groups in hearing other points of view, and negotiating programs. And some egos, a lot of different practices and codes, and several arenas of discussion and intervention. Despite all those problems, there have been times, this last year, in porto (general strikes, the es.col.a process, fights against privatizations, etc) where people have been able to get together - i think it is possible, plausible, and very necessary. We need more people everywhere. In all groups, formal or informal, in all scales and social fields, demanding real change and oposing solidarity and creativity to the individualistic-dog-eat-dog-capitalist-world. This is also a participation crisis.